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Re: My post to an economist  

By: Beldin in 6TH POPE | Recommend this post (3)
Fri, 15 Jul 22 10:37 PM | 28 view(s)
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Msg. 33665 of 58582
(This msg. is a reply to 33659 by Fiz)

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fizzy,

I use the terms Classical Liberal and Socialist.

A Socialist believes the power of choice belongs to the state, rather than the individual, and the state should use its power (through coercion) to bring about "equality" - Karl Marx ~ "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

A Classical Liberal believes the power of choice belongs with the individual. Each individual should be equal as to opportunity, but one must also acknowledge that everyone has different abilities and work ethics with which to apply the abilities they have been given. Therefore, "equality of outcome," which is the desire of Socialists, ultimately will not - cannot - actually happen. The state should exist to facilitate, to the best of its ability while dutifully honoring the superiority of individual rights and freedoms over the restricted powers of the state, the "equality of opportunity" for all of its citizens and then stay out of the way to allow them to succeed or fail based on their own merits and efforts.

Socialism fails EVERY. DAMN. TIME. it is tried because:

1. "Equality of outcome" is a childish fantasy that will never, ever happen in actuality. Some people are smarter and work harder than others, and they will either enjoy the rewards of their successful efforts or they will "go John Gault." Ultimately, the producers in society will refuse to continue to apply themselves if the majority of the rewards from their efforts are confiscated by the state and financial support for the state will eventually wither.

2. The state will quickly become heavily bureaucratic, which will make it very inefficient and incompetent. It WILL NOT be able to compensate for the brain-drain caused by the reclusive withdrawal of its most productive citizens and WILL FUBAR everything it tries to control.

3. The leaders of the state, belying their expressed sentiment of "equality," will actually view themselves as "the elite" who should be provided with a luxurious lifestyle at the expense of the other "little people" whom they purport to rule over. This will definitely cause simmering resentment that will continue to grow until it finally boils over.

4. Generally, people will only suffer so much coercion before they start to sabotage the efforts of their oppressors and then move on towards open rebellion.

Don't know if my thoughts are of any help, but the foregoing is my quick 2 cents worth.

Regards,

B. 




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The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted. ~ D.H. Lawrence


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The above is a reply to the following message:
My post to an economist
By: Fiz
in 6TH POPE
Fri, 15 Jul 22 6:46 PM
Msg. 33659 of 58582

http://defenseofcapitalism.blogspot.com/2009/12/americas-return-to-road-to-serfdom-by.html?sc=1657902968484#c6439447126364202287

My comment: Hayek's argument that Socialism is the Antithesis of Democracy seems most cogent and apropos for changing the minds of more people. I picked up a copy of Hayek's "Road to Serfdom" yesterday and attempted to get the 1 minute version of his logic, so I could use it more effectively. Maybe 30 minutes later I walked away and tried to find a synopsis which cut more to the chase. Why would I quit so easily? Because I am looking for an argument which will be apropos to the AVERAGE citizen in the US. There aren't enough economists, nor even business-owners in the US to tip the balance at the voting box, which is where the real danger lies.

I think the argument about economics of free markets is non-compelling and almost of no interest to the average citizen. So Hayek's argument stressing free markets is kind of a waste, or maybe it is just self-evident to some and of little interest right now to the remainder.

On the other hand, sharpening up the argument that Democracy and Socialism are mutually exclusive would, I think, be wiser. You probably have 1 minute to get the point across to the average citizen and people who are struggling to survive in a fiat system where markets are ALWAYS, by definition, NOT FREE, is probably a wasted effort if the purpose is, as you say, to save the US while we possibly still can.

Thoughts? Can you perhaps direct me to an article which really sharpens up and sticks to the single point that Democracy (individual choice) and Socialism (no choice as an individual except which pre-approved poison to take) cannot coexist for long? People don't get it. Even I didn't get it until last night -- and I've had Hayek's book sitting on a shelf for probably twenty years because it has SO MUCH fluff in the way of the core arguments. IMO, of course, as a practical Ayn Rand fan and small business owner.
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Here is, IMO, the most impactful comment to make:
(1) Democracy is about CHOICE. Your ability to CHOOSE THE RULES, within an honestly competitive ideological spectrum, under which you will live...or die.
(2) Socialism is about massively PRE-RESTRICTED choice of rules. If ideas don't fit into the "average" head of the populace it is BY DEFINITION off the table as a possibility.

Conversely, no matter how destructive and nonsensical an existing policy is, it is effectively unstoppable under Socialism -- because the AVERAGE citizen has already made their choice of bad choices.

(3) Therefore, if you are a Socialist you are IPSO FACTO AGAINST DEMOCRACY (Choice). If you don't realize that, you are an ignorant voter who is actually ANTI democratic.

Consider if you would favor "democracy" in a field where the only ALLOWED choices were whether you, as a Jew, are going to go into hiding or turn yourself in to the State. Hitler WAS elected DEMOCRATICALLY. He had the popular vote. So the Jews weren't murdered, they couldn't be murdered...they must have committed suicide in the service of the Collective and the State.

Nazism IS Socialism. The Nazi Party,[a] officially the National SOCIALIST German Workers' Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei[b] or NSDAP)

If people don't like that clear line of reasoning I suggest you ask them to define, EXACTLY what "Socialsm" is. When they say something like "People choice" of the economy and the rules ask them "according to what COLLECTIVE?" ... and how can that possibly be consonant with INDIVIDUAL freedom?

P.S. I'm posting this on Atomic Bob's in the hope that someone here can critique my argument and possibly help me make it more cogent and effective. I really think it needs to be a 1 minute piece of logic, tops, which will PUT -- and keep -- THE SOCIALIST ON THE DEFENSIVE. Right now, Socialism has a free pass in public discourse; even people who are logically "smart" and of good-will don't realize what the core, decisive PREMISE of "Socialism" actually is!


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