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Re: Thoreau (cactus flower reply)

By: Cactus Flower in ALEA | Recommend this post (0)
Mon, 12 Sep 22 10:08 PM | 53 view(s)
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Msg. 47011 of 54809
(This msg. is a reply to 47009 by Fiz)

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Well done for your defence of Thoreau. I hated the quote, which was condescending, but you make a better tale of his worth than the quote does.

I was rather fond of our queen who saw value in everyone, and particularly those people who do their duty as small cogs in the machinery of a country. The people that Thoreau apparently despised.

The idea that it is the duty of citizens to defy tyrants has a long pedigree. I know about it, in particular, from Policraticus, the twelfth century work of John of Salisbury. The just ruler is a person who reveres the law, serves his people, defends his kingdom and honours God. The people should reject and kill a tyrant, he argues.

But unlike Thoreauu, John doesn't seek to define any individuals with that responsibility. It is a collective one. It belongs to everyone, not someone. Note this, in particular, John Wilkes Booth and his ilk.

On much the same subject, but from a different perspective, a person who writes about the injustice of mobs is William Shakespeare in Coriolanus. People who appoint themselves as bearing a higher wisdom, a wisdom which they point in the direction of rulers, are particularly prone to act foolishly and to be led around by the nose.

We had a regicide in the seventeenth century and tried a system of government without a king or queen. We restored the monarchy soon afterwards. Charles I and Charles II.

Back to today. By all means march. Some may feel so upset they will perform peaceful acts of civil disobedience to draw attention to an injustice, as they see it.

In a democracy, however, with a proper process for replacing its rulers, the big problem is taken care of. If we don't like the folks in charge, we just throw the bums out. As the US did with Trump. And we do, periodically, with our prime ministers.

Violence against a democratically-elected government by a mob of self-righteous thugs? Nope. Jail such people.


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The above is a reply to the following message:
Re: Thoreau (cactus flower reply)
By: Fiz
in ALEA
Mon, 12 Sep 22 9:29 PM
Msg. 47009 of 54809

Hi Cactus Flower,

I think if you read more about him, combined with reading more of what he wrote, you might be very favorably impressed. He was a classic liberal who did his best to practice what he preached, sometimes at great personal cost. For example, he spent a long time in jail for refusing to financially or otherwise support war and slavery.

If I remember correctly, you are not American - which would explain why you don't know of Thoreau. Americans have no similarly good reason for not knowing. I don't know much about the great men and women in English history who paid dearly for protesting injustice in your country. Perhaps you might suggest a few luminaries from your own history?

As you may have observed, most "Christians" and non-Christians, regardless of political party or supposed ethical beliefs, are just fine with reaping benefits of exploiting innocents...so long as someone else does it for them, they can pretend they "didn't know", and they don't have to get their hands visibly dirty. What I call "evil by proxy" accounts for nearly all the killing and other ugliness in the world.

As I'm sure we both know, MOST people are massively hypocritical when it comes to paying a personal price for what they, supposedly, believe. Thoreau was a close friend of Ralph Waldo Emerson, and perhaps you know the latter somewhat better?


http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_David_Thoreau

http://sites.psu.edu/henrydavid/2015/04/30/thoreau-on-slavery/

"Thoreau’s Slavery in Massachusetts essay is based off a speech he gave at an anti-slavery rally in Massachusetts after the decision was made to send free/runaway slaves that were living up north back to slavery in the south; Fugitive Slave Act. In particular a fugitive slave, Anthony Burns, was re-enslaved in Boston, Mass. Thoreau’s anti-slavery views expressed throughout the essay are one’s of American Romantic’s preoccupation with democracy and freedom. During the time American Romantic writing was all about the values we separated from Britain on. The only problem was everyone was talking about freedom and democracy but weren’t living up to those values they held on to so tightly; slaves weren’t allowed freedom and democracy played against them. Thoreau gives examples after examples of how ass backwards and hypocritical these “people” of the US are, caring more about slaves than matters of citizenship like when he states, “The whole military force of the state is at service of a Mr. Suttle, a slaveholder from Virginia, to enable him to catch a man whom he calls his property; but not a soldier is offered to save a citizen of Massachusetts from being kidnapped” but aren’t they supposed to be about the people about freedom and democracy? Thoreau makes such good points on why enslaving people are wrong but yet the very same people who rebelled against enslavement in a way can’t see their wrong doing. It makes you wonder was this essay even effective and if so what would be the reaction?
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Anyway, I think Thoreau is one of the greatest Americans who ever lived in terms of heart, intellect, influence, AND (most important of all) MORAL INTEGRITY.


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