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Re: Thoreau (cactus flower reply) 

By: Fiz in ALEA | Recommend this post (2)
Tue, 13 Sep 22 6:27 PM | 48 view(s)
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Msg. 47026 of 54807
(This msg. is a reply to 47016 by Cactus Flower)

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"I have no interest in individuals who think themselves wiser than the people, taken as a whole, and who propound and employ violence against the elected government as a tool. Nor in those who seek to undermine or control the election machinery to procure the results they wish for. Both belong in jail."

I TOTALLY agree with you here!

The US has long had persistent, SYSTEMIC problems in large-scale voter and judiciary fraud. Did you know that? In particular, in our largest cities it is well documented:

(e.g., Chicago http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/164338, New York http://www.history.com/topics/us-politics/tammany-hall. Baltimore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Crew. Philidephia http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2020/11/07/philadelphias_long_history_of_corruption_and_fraud_528760.html) the fraud has historically been recurrent and rampant.)

You know why, right? Many, arguably most, of the largest US cities were effectively "ruled" by major, interconnected Mafia crime family syndicates as recently as a few decades ago? Those crime families still remain in those cities, even as they have taken measures to lower their profile and hide their past.

Do to the distributed nature of our system, one large MODERN city can easily swing a Congressional or even a Presidential election for an entire state. A FEW states, in this way, can easily swing a federal election. The US is, again, not a "pure" Democracy. It was built to tie together a bunch of geographically and culturally "independent" communities and INDEPENDENT states. That is what our system is good for. But only if the elections are demonstrably FAIR and the people are not too divided. If a MAJOR city or two is corrupted, the whole election can be corrupted.

Are you aware that "Speaker of the House" Nancy Pelsi is the daughter of a Mafia-connected family that dominated Baltimore? http://www.baltimoresun.com/politics/bs-md-pol-dalesandro-family-20191021-w5ftn3ue2zdhfhzvvjr6fmu644-story.html. http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/18321673-nancy-pelosi-s-father-had-baltimore-mafia-ties.

Have you seen the movie The Godfather? That was not wild fantasy, I hope you know? It was fictional, but largely historically based. You might want to watch it again, to get some real idea of how things work in “the family” and how little control the legitimate US government HAS of the situation.

Are you aware that Rudy Giuliani was instrumental in wrecking the crime family syndicate and its stranglehold on governance in NY City? That happened only in 1986: http://themobmuseum.org/notable_names/rudolph-giuliani/. http://detailedpedia.com/wiki-Mafia_Commission_Trial.

http://www.coreysdigs.com › law-order › rudy-rico-and-clinton-inc-racketeeringRudy, RICO, and Clinton Inc. Racketeering - coreysdigs.com
“Rudy Giuliani, an expert on RICO, as the first prosecutor to use RICO in a major federal case, has stated in numerous interviews that this evidence, as well as other pieces of evidence warrants a criminal investigation into the Clintons and the use of their official positions for personal profit.”

Giuliani went on to be elected mayor of NY City and he left it in VASTLY better shape when he left office (it was a real mess, in every sense, before). The argument can be defended that Giuliani IS a real hero, with real courage and integrity. Taking on the mafia as he did could have easily cost him dearly...his life or more, because that is how the mafia operates. (Again, I suggest The Godfather as an education for you on how things really worked in the US at that time)

Hopefully you recognize the name Rudy Giuliani? He took on the role of investigating the claims of systematic voter fraud after the 2020 election. Certain elements within “the State” attached to the Democratic party attacked him. He is no fool, no tool, and arguably an incredibly brave and honest man, as is well documented in his history of routing out corruption as a lawyer, prosecutor, Mafia buster, and NY mayor. He has approximately as much substantiated integrity as the Queen of England, I would say.

He also played a major role in uncovering the Hunter Biden laptop. Which the Administrative State in collaboration with the main stream media conveniently and systematically denied and suppressed...until the "election" was over. But which is now acknowledged as REAL.

I had a much longer response written, but it got eaten before I could post it. I am posting this with inadequate editing, but hopefully it gives you significant food for thought. To put it bluntly, but I think honestly: you are not COMPETENT to have too solid an opinion on US politics, the deficiencies in US politics because you don't have near enough background knowledge, and especially not lifelong boots-on-the-ground knowledge.

You didn't even know who Thoreau was, which is understandable, but indicative of a VAST ignorance about how things actually work in the US. But you are jumping into US politics, and taking a side, when you clearly aren't competent to do that.

You are clearly a REALLY SMART AND WELL EDUCATED individual. I mean that sincerely. And you are also gracious and, I think, broad-minded in giving me space here to say what I am saying. But, just as it would be dangerous for me to jump in and start lecturing you and other well-educated UK citizens on the deficiencies and cures for English politics, you are not competent to speak too much about US politics and our recent travails.

You may know the technical difference between a democracy and a republic, but you don't know that experiential, because you haven't lived your life in THIS Republic...and watched the corruption spreading through the institutions, especially the schools. You don't really know our history very well, particularly the historic problems of Mafia-run cities and Mafia-run politics.

The US holds together, at this juncture, ONLY because it is a very, very well-built Republic, with lots of checks and balances. At this point we have an oligarchy in control of the CENTRALIZED reins of power in the US (the US was supposed to remain decentralized, with power going citizen->state-federal; that has now been Unconstitutionally undermined).

At this point US elections are ONLY meant to serve as Bread and Circus: to keep the citizens placated and keep the Administrative State and its toadies in power. The 2016 election cycle took the US oligarchy by surprise; much as BREXIT apparently did in the UK.

The 2020 election cycle OUGHT TO HAVE BEEN thoroughly carefully watched and thoroughly investigated. It was not. It intentionally was not. Covid lockdowns were used to justify a vast expansion in mail in ballots, which could not be carefully monitored.

The US Founders were generally quite educated and, in particular, they admired the historian Polybius. His analysis of why the early Roman republic was so resilient and relatively civil, informed them. They modified the Roman formula to make it even more resistant to corruption.

It is stunning how ignorant the average American NOW is about history in general and the origins of the US system, in particular. Few in the US can now tell you the distinction between a democracy and a republic, in spite of the fact that THE US WAS CAREFULLY DESIGNED NOT AS A "DEMOCRACY" BUT RATHER AS A REPUBLIC and that the difference is vast.

Benjamin Franklin: http://thenewamerican.com/a-republic-if-you-can-keep-it/


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P.S. What is the source of the long quote? I presume it was originally in Latin and you quoted it to make some particular point? I confess I don't speak Latin, although I have studied Roman history somewhat.

I hope to keep on corresponding with you. I don't think the gap between us is irreconcilable, and I respect your reasoned arguments. I hope you will take the time to reasonably consider mine.


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The above is a reply to the following message:
Re: Thoreau (cactus flower reply)
By: Cactus Flower
in ALEA
Tue, 13 Sep 22 6:20 AM
Msg. 47016 of 54807

Just in case it wasn't clear, that was a conservative argument for democracy and the rule of law, by any sensible definition of the word conservative.

I have no interest in individuals who think themselves wiser than the people, taken as a whole, and who propound and employ violence against the elected government as a tool. Nor in those who seek to undermine or control the election machinery to procure the results they wish for. Both belong in jail.

One difficulty for Americans is they don't teach you as much as they might about where your ideas come from. They mostly aren't original to the New World. We were fighting over many of them in the twelfth and thirteenth century. The Roman republic had the same issues, as did the Ancient Greeks.

"The greater part of those who ere now have spoken in this place, have been accustomed to praise the man who introduced this oration into the law; considering it a right thing that it should be delivered over those who are buried after falling in battle. To me, however, it would have appeared sufficient, that when men had shown themselves brave by deeds, their honors also should be displayed by deeds—as you now see in the case of this burial, prepared at the public expense—and not that the virtues of many should be periled in one individual for credit to be given him according as he expresses himself well or ill. For it is difficult to speak with propriety on a subject on which even the impression of one's truthfulness is with difficulty established.

Now with regard to our military achievements, by which each possession was gained, whether in any case it were ourselves, or our fathers, that repelled with spirit hostilities brought against us by barbarian or Greek; as I do not wish to enlarge on the subject before you who are well acquainted with it, I will pass them over. But by what a mode of life we attained to our power, and by what form of government and owing to what habits it became so great, I will explain these points first, and then proceed to the eulogy of these men; as I consider that on the present occasion they will not be inappropriately mentioned, and that it is profitable for the whole assembly, both citizens and strangers, to listen to them.

For we enjoy a form of government which does not copy the laws of our neighbors; but we are ourselves rather a pattern to others than imitators of them. In name, from its not being administered for the benefit of the few, but of the many, it is called a democracy; but with regard to its laws, all enjoy equality, as concerns their private differences; while with regard to public rank, according as each man has reputation for anything, he is preferred for public honors, not so much from consideration of party, as of merit; nor, again, on the ground of poverty, while he is able to do the state any good service, is he prevented by the obscurity of his position. We are liberal then in our public administration; and with regard to mutual jealousy of our daily pursuits, we are not angry with our neighbor, if he does anything to please himself; nor wear on our countenance offensive looks, which tho harmless, are yet unpleasant. While, however, in private matters we live together agreeably, in public matters, under the influence of fear, we most carefully abstain from transgression, through our obedience to those who are from time to time in office, and to the laws; especially such of them as are enacted for the benefit of the injured, and such as, tho unwritten, bring acknowledged disgrace [on those who break them].

Moreover, we have provided for our spirits the most numerous recreations from labors, by celebrating games and sacrifices through the whole year, and by maintaining elegant private establishments, of which the daily gratification drives away sadness. Owing to the greatness too of our city, everything from every land is imported into it; and it is our lot to reap with no more peculiar enjoyment the good things which are produced here, than those of the rest of the world likewise.

In the studies of war also we differ from our enemies in the following respects: We throw our city open to all, and never, by the expulsion of strangers, exclude anyone from either learning or observing things, by seeing which unconcealed any of our enemies might gain an advantage; for we trust not so much to preparations and stratagems, as to our own valor for daring deeds. Again, as to our modes of education, they aim at the acquisition of a manly character, by laborious training from their very youth; while we, tho living at our ease, no less boldly advance to meet equal dangers. As a proof of this, the Lacedæmonians never march against our country singly, but with all [their confederates] together: while we, generally speaking, have no difficulty in conquering in battle upon hostile ground those who are standing up in defense of their own. And no enemy ever yet encountered our whole united force, through our attending at the same time to our navy, and sending our troops by land on so many different services: but wherever they have engaged with any part of it. if they conquer only some of us, they boast that we were all routed by them; and if they are conquered, they say it was by all that they were beaten. And yet if with careless ease rather than with laborious practise, and with a courage which is the result not so much of laws as of natural disposition, we are willing to face danger, we have the advantage of not suffering beforehand from coming troubles, and of proving ourselves, when we are involved in them, no less bold than those who are always toiling; so that our country is worthy of admiration in these respects, and in others besides.

For we study taste with economy, and philosophy without effeminacy; and employ wealth rather for opportunity of action than for boastfulness of talking; while poverty is nothing disgraceful for a man to confess, but not to escape it by exertion is more disgraceful. Again, the same men can attend at the same time to domestic as well as to public affairs; and others, who are engaged with business, can still form a sufficient judgment on political questions. For we are the only people that consider the man who takes no part in these things, not as unofficious, but as useless; and we ourselves judge rightly of measures, at any rate, if we do not originate them; while we do not regard words as any hindrance to deeds, but rather [consider it a hindrance] not to have been previously instructed by word, before undertaking in deed what we have to do. For we have this characteristic also in a remarkable degree, that we are at the same
time most daring and most calculating in what we take in hand, whereas to other men it is ignorance that brings daring, while calculation brings fear.

In short, I say that both the whole city is a school for Greece, and that, in my opinion, the same individual wonld among us provide himself qualified for the most varied kinds of action, and with the most graceful versatility. And that this is not mere vaunting language for the occasion, so much as actual truth, the very power of the state, which we have won by such habits, affords a proof. For it is the only country at the present time that, when brought to the test, proves superior to its fame; and the only one that neither gives to the enemy who has attacked us any cause for indignation at being worsted by such opponents, nor to him who is subject to us room for finding fault, as not being ruled by men who are worthy of empire. But we shall be admired both by present and future generations as having exhibited our power with great proofs, and by no means without evidence; and as having no further need, either of Homer to praise us or anyone else who might charm for the moment by his verses, while the truth of the facts would mar the idea formed of them; but as having compelled every sea and land to become accessible to our daring, and everywhere established everlasting records, whether of evil or of good. It was for such a country then that these men, nobly resolving not to have it taken from them, fell fighting; and every one of their survivors may well be willing to suffer in its behalf.

For this reason, indeed, it is that I have enlarged on the characteristics of the state; both to prove that the struggle is not for the same object in our ease as in that of men who have none of these advantages in an equal degree; and at the same time clearly to establish by proofs [the truth of] the eulogy of those men over whom I am now speaking. And now the chief points of it have been mentioned; for with regard to the things for which I have commended the city, it was the virtues of these men, such as these, that adorned her with them; and few of the Greeks are there whose fame, like these men's, would appear but the just counterpoise of their deeds.

Again, the closing scene of these men appears to me to supply an illustration of human worth, whether as affording us the first information respecting it, or its final confirmation. For even in the case of men who have been in other respects of an inferior character, it is but fair for them to hold forth as a screen their military courage in their country's behalf; for, having wiped out their evil by their good, they did more service collectively, than harm by their individual offenses.

But of these men there was none that either was made a coward by his wealth, from preferring the continued enjoyment of it: or shrank from danger through a hope suggested by poverty, namely, that he might yet escape it, and grow rich; but conceiving that vengeance on their foes was more to be desired than these objects, and at the same time regarding this as the most glorious of hazards, they wished by risking it to be avenged on their enemies, and so to aim at procuring those advantages; committing to hope the uncertainty of success, but resolving to trust to action, with regard to what was visible to themselves; and in that action, being minded rather to resist and die, than by surrendering to escape, they fled from the shame of [a discreditable] report, while they endured the brunt of the battle with their bodies; and after the shortest crisis, when at the very height of their fortune, were taken away from their glory rather than their fear.

Such did these men prove themselves, as became the character of their country. For you that remain, you must pray that you may have a more successful resolution, but must determine not to have one less bold against your enemies; not in word alone considering the benefit [of such a spirit], (on which one might descant to you at great length—tho you know it yourselves quite as well—telling you how many advantages are contained in repelling your foes) but rather day by day beholding the power of the city as it appears in fact, and growing enamored of it, and reflecting, when you think it great that it was by being bold, and knowing their duty, and being alive to shame in action, that men acquired these things; and because, if they ever failed in their attempt at anything, they did not on that account think it right to deprive their country also of their valor, but conferred upon her a most glorious joint-offering.

For while collectively they gave her their lives, individually they received that renown which never grows old, and the most distinguished tomb they could have; not so much that in which they are laid, as that in which their glory is left behind them, to be everlastingly recorded on every occasion for doing so, either by word or deed, that may from time to time present itself. For of illustrious men the whole earth is the sepulcher; and not only does the inscription upon columns in their own land point it out, but in that also which is not their own there dwells with every one an unwritten memorial of the heart, rather than of a material monument.

Vying then with these men in your turn, and deeming happiness to consist in freedom, and freedom in valor, do not think lightly of the hazards of war. For it is not the unfortunate, [and those] who have no hope of any good, that would with most reason be unsparing of their lives; but those who, while they live, still incur the risk of a change to the opposite condition, and to whom the difference would be the greatest, should they meet with any reverse. For more grievous, to a man of high spirit at least, is the misery which accompanies cowardice, than the unfelt death which comes upon him at once, in the time of his strength and of his hope for the common welfare.

Wherefore to the parents of the dead—as many of them as are here among you—I will not offer condolence, so much as consolation. For they know that they have been brought up subject to manifold misfortunes; but that happy is their lot who have gained the most glorious—death, as these have,—sorrow, as you have; and to whom life has been so exactly measured, that they were both happy in it, and died in [that happiness]. Difficult, indeed, I know it is to persuade you of this, with regard to those of whom you will often be reminded by the good fortune of others, in which you yourselves also once rejoiced; and sorrow is felt, not for the blessings of which one is bereft without full experience of them, but of that which one loses after becoming accustomed to it.

But you must bear up in the hope of other children, those of you whose age yet allows you to have them. For to yourselves individually those who are subsequently born will be a reason for your forgetting those who are no more; and to the state it will be beneficial in two ways, by its not being depopulated, and by the enjoyment of security; for it is not possible that those should offer any fair and just advice, who do not incur equal risk with their neighbors by having children at stake. Those of you, however, who are past that age, must consider that the longer period of your life during which you have been prosperous is so much gain, and that what remains will be a short one; and you must cheer yourselves with the fair fame of these [your lost ones]. For the love of honor is the only feeling that never grows old; and in the helplessness of age it is not the acquisition of gain, as some assert, that gives greatest pleasure, but the enjoyment of honor.

For those of you, on the other hand, who are sons or brothers of the dead, great, I see, will be the struggle of competition. For every one is accustomed to praise the man who is no more; and scarcely, tho even for an excess of worth, would you be esteemed, I do not say equal to them, but only slightly inferior. For the living are exposed to envy in their rivalry; but those who are in no one's way are honored with a good will free from all opposition. If, again, I must say anything on the subject of woman's excellence also, with reference to those of you who will now be in widowhood, I will express it all in a brief exhortation. Great will be your glory in not falling short of the natural character that belongs to you; and great is hers, who is least talked of among the men, either for good or evil.

I have now expressed in word, as the law required, what I had to say befitting the occasion; and, in deed, those who are here interred, have already received part of their honors, while, for the remaining part, the state will bring up their sons at the public expense, from this time to their manhood; thus offering both to these and to their posterity a beneficial reward for such contests; for where the greatest prizes for virtue are given, there also the most virtuous men are found amongst the citizens. And now, having finished your lamentations for your several relatives, depart."


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