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A Skeptical Scientist Strikes again - about that Martian 'discovery' 

By: monkeytrots in 6TH POPE | Recommend this post (1)
Thu, 15 Aug 24 8:11 PM | 17 view(s)
Boardmark this board | 6th Edition Pope Board 		Msg. 56657 of 60008
(This msg. is a reply to 56596 by De_Composed)
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Intro: A proposal, musing, or [/b]speculation[/b]

DOES NOT QUALIFY AS A DISCOVERY

A 'giant subterranean ocean on Mars' has NOT been 'discovered'.

First, the TITLE -
Hidden Ocean Beneath Mars: A Game-Changing Discovery

Exhibit A: Jim Green (NASA’s Chief Scientist): “A subsurface ocean on Mars could serve as a vast reservoir of life, protected from the harsh surface conditions. This possibility is an exciting reminder that we still have much to learn about our neighboring planet.” (Jim Green, 2020, reflecting on the potential for subsurface water on Mars)

Count the HEDGE words in Mr. Green's statement immediately after the Title. could, possibility, reflecting, potential for ....

A more accurate term than 'reflecting on' would have been a TRUTHFUL statement "speculating on", because that is exactly what it is: rank speculation - not a reflection - reflection requires existence, speculation can be about anything. Even 'thoughts on' is a more explicit admission than deflecting with 'reflecting'. Obfuscation, concealment with at best, ambiguous words.

Now, the GUTS of the ISSUE - the actual 'scientific' methods used to bolster such a 'gigantic speculation'.

Past the fraudulent hype of the article, a bit of the 'methodology' is revealed, buried well into the article.

From the article ...
By analyzing the speed of seismic waves traveling through the Martian crust, researchers were able to infer the presence of substances beneath the surface. The speed of these waves can reveal the composition of the rock, its fractures, and what fills those cracks. Utilizing this data, Wright and his team fed the information into a rock physics model—similar to methods used on Earth to locate oil fields and aquifers.

Their findings indicate that the data best aligns with a deep layer of volcanic rock, saturated with liquid water. Study coauthor Michael Manga, a professor of earth and planetary science at the University of California, Berkeley, suggested that this discovery offers a glimpse into Mars’ past climate and the potential habitability of its deep subsurface.

The study authors propose that if Mars’ crust is similar across the planet, the mid-crust zone might contain even more water than previously hypothesized ancient Martian oceans. This discovery enriches our understanding of Mars’ water cycle and its geological evolution.
... end excerpt

Not much there really about the facts or really even about the method.

1. Igneous, possibly some metamorphic, rocks are all that exist on mars. Layered sedimentary rocks DO NOT.

2. Igneous (volcanic) mineral are dense, and have high seismic velocities. Microfracturing will reduce both shear and pressure waves (S & P waves). The presence or absence of fluid in the microfractures will have VERY LITTLE, IF ANY effect on the velocity of either P or S waves in such a medium - (microfractured igneous rocks). That is field proven, and laboratory experiment verified FACT. The mineralogical composition DOES have an observable effect - ie. quart vs granite vs other 'igneous' rocks. These velocities are in RANGES for different compositions - they are NOT 'single fixed values' - depending on several variables; mineral composition, direction of wave wrt stress vectors, extent of microfracturing, size of microfracturing, and son on.

As for those 'models' that the article references: On which geologic samples (ie. rocks) from Mars were those models based ?

Some educated infernals about variosus aspects;
1. Reciever; stationary (known), probably tri-axial (x,y, and z independent measurements), if an array (ie. multiple recievers) would have relatively small spatial array. Ie. VERY limited 'seismic' measurement capabilities - but the BEST that could be done with the size and location limitations on such a mission.

2. Source: undoubtedly the 'quakes and microquakes' generated by Mars itself. A controlled source would require far too much energy for prolonged measurements and the touted 12-15 mile deep 'investigation' claim.
This means that the SOURCE location(s) were unknown and variable *not all quakes from exactly the same location, obviously*, of extreme variable frequency and amplitude/magnitude, depths unknown, and so forth. Those type of determinations require MULTIPLE receiver stations, separated by large (miles to hundreds or even thousands of miles) distances. Thus, the 'inferred' nature of the seimic 'source(s)'.

3. Most of the seismic measured would be either direct arrivals or refracted energy. Perhaps SOME reflected would have been received (layered lava flows on the surface, magma pipes, or other volcanic features).

I could go on, but the number of UNKNOWNS in all of this are really HIGH. There is no way that they have scientifically proven (ie. discovered) anything 12-15 miles below the surface of mars - much less a 'submerged ocean'.

Scripps HAS had a pretty impressive record to date. This article however, and presentation of blatant speculations touting a 'DISCOVERY' is not only extremely disappointing, it tarnishes that reputation greatly, and lowers their involment to the level of Barnum and Baily carnival barkers.


And yes, there are MANY other types of 'seismic' waves. And no, shear waves CAN NOT travel through a fluid. But they CAN and DO travel easily through strata that are microfractured and contain fluids. You still have solids touching solids in that media.





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Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good ...


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The above is a reply to the following message:
Re: Another example of Trump and the RNC blowing it while trying to benefit from the tragedy of others...
By: De_Composed in 6TH POPE
Wed, 14 Aug 24 2:33 PM 		Msg. 56596 of 60008

micro:

Re: “It was not an accident that this planet is exactly the right distance away from the star which gives off heat and light to this planet so it is not an ice ball like all the other ones farther away nor is it a furnace where ya could get burned alive in a millisecond.”Weeks later, we are learning that Mars too is "exactly the right distance" from the sun to support life!

If we don't first wipe ourselves out, I expect we humans will eventually find an incredible wealth of such planets. It's a big universe. And maybe, someday, somewhere in the vast cosmos, we will find a culture of exotic anaerobic "fish" evolved in an underground ocean, thinking like you -- but about their own fishy world and how God (a Pisces, no doubt) created the universe with exactly the right amount of insulated ceiling to keep them from either freezing or boiling.

Scroll down for an article on this profound discovery.
August 13, 2024

Hidden Ocean Beneath Mars: A Game-Changing Discovery

by nephila
SummaryNews.Whatfinger.com

Jim Green (NASA’s Chief Scientist): “A subsurface ocean on Mars could serve as a vast reservoir of life, protected from the harsh surface conditions. This possibility is an exciting reminder that we still have much to learn about our neighboring planet.” (Jim Green, 2020, reflecting on the potential for subsurface water on Mars)

New insights from a decommissioned NASA mission have unveiled a groundbreaking discovery—an extensive underground water reservoir buried deep within Mars’ surface. This revelation, drawn from a comprehensive study, suggests that Mars might house enough water trapped within its crust to submerge the entire planet under an ocean up to one mile deep.

The crucial data for this study was gathered by NASA’s InSight lander, which operated on Mars from 2018 to 2022. During its mission, InSight employed a seismometer to probe the Martian interior, yielding valuable information that has now led to this remarkable discovery.


Uploaded Image


The research indicates that accessing this hidden water would be an immense challenge for future Mars explorers. The water is believed to be entombed between 7 and 12 miles beneath the planet’s surface, a depth that poses significant obstacles for any potential drilling operations. However, the implications of this discovery stretch far beyond the technical difficulties; they provide a new dimension to our understanding of Mars’ geological history and hint at a potential environment where life might exist—if the water could be accessed.

Lead researcher Vashan Wright, an assistant professor and geophysicist at the University of California, San Diego’s Scripps Institution of Oceanography, emphasized the importance of understanding Mars’ water cycle to comprehend the planet’s climate evolution. According to Wright, identifying the location and quantity of Martian water is crucial for unraveling the red planet’s history.

Mars, once a warmer and wetter world, is thought to have harbored vast lakes, river networks, and deltas billions of years ago. However, around 3 billion years ago, the planet lost its atmosphere, effectively ending its wet era. The reasons behind this atmospheric loss remain one of the enduring mysteries of Mars’ history, with numerous missions dedicated to uncovering the fate of the planet’s water and its potential to sustain life.

Previous theories about the fate of Martian water include its transformation into ice, its escape into space, or its absorption into minerals beneath the surface. The recent findings suggest that much of this water percolated deep into the Martian crust, where it has remained trapped for eons.

The InSight mission, which stands for Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy, and Heat Transport, was a stationary lander tasked with investigating the Martian interior. Although it was immobile, InSight provided unprecedented data on Mars’ crust, mantle, core, and atmosphere. Its seismometer was particularly adept at detecting “marsquakes,” seismic events akin to earthquakes on Earth. Over its mission, InSight recorded more than 1,300 marsquakes, offering scientists a unique window into the planet’s internal structure.

Uploaded Image


By analyzing the speed of seismic waves traveling through the Martian crust, researchers were able to infer the presence of substances beneath the surface. The speed of these waves can reveal the composition of the rock, its fractures, and what fills those cracks. Utilizing this data, Wright and his team fed the information into a rock physics model—similar to methods used on Earth to locate oil fields and aquifers.

Their findings indicate that the data best aligns with a deep layer of volcanic rock, saturated with liquid water. Study coauthor Michael Manga, a professor of earth and planetary science at the University of California, Berkeley, suggested that this discovery offers a glimpse into Mars’ past climate and the potential habitability of its deep subsurface.

The study authors propose that if Mars’ crust is similar across the planet, the mid-crust zone might contain even more water than previously hypothesized ancient Martian oceans. This discovery enriches our understanding of Mars’ water cycle and its geological evolution.

While the data cannot confirm the presence of life, the existence of liquid water deep within Mars’ crust presents a tantalizing possibility. On Earth, deep subsurface environments are known to harbor life, raising the question of whether similar conditions might exist on Mars.

However, drilling to such depths on Mars would be a formidable challenge, requiring significant energy and infrastructure. The study also noted the absence of a frozen groundwater layer above the mid-crust, a puzzling observation that researchers are still trying to explain.

Uploaded Image

The discovery that liquid water exists beneath Mars’ surface, even as water-saturated sediments, has profound astrobiological implications. Alberto Fairén, planetary scientist and astrobiologist at Cornell University, highlighted the potential for such environments to host life, drawing parallels to Earth’s vast subsurface biosphere.

This finding represents the kind of breakthrough that scientists had hoped for from the InSight mission. It not only enhances our understanding of Mars’ interior but also raises new questions about the planet’s habitability and evolution. Wright and other researchers are eager to see more seismometers deployed on Mars and other celestial bodies to further explore these possibilities. The groundwater we observe today is a relic of Mars’ ancient past, connecting its present state to a wetter, more dynamic world.

Quotes

Planetary Scientist Perspective: “The discovery of what might be a liquid water ocean beneath Mars’ icy surface represents one of the most exciting developments in planetary science. It suggests that Mars is not a dead planet but one with the potential to harbor life.”

• NASA Statement: “The evidence for subsurface water on Mars is mounting. If there is a large, liquid water ocean beneath the Martian surface, it would be a game-changer, not only for the possibility of life but also for future human exploration.” (NASA, discussing findings from the Mars Expess spacecraft)

• Alfred McEwen (Planetary Geologist): “If Mars has a subsurface ocean, it opens up the possibility that the planet could have sustained microbial life at some point in its history—or even that it could still do so today.” (Alfred McEwen, University of Arizona)

http://summarynews.whatfinger.com/2024/08/13/hidden-ocean-beneath-mars-a-game-changing-discovery-2/

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